This is a good article to get us warmed up.
Science is based on the assumption that the universe is thoroughly rational and logical at all levels. Miracles are not allowed. This implies that there should be reasons for the particular laws of nature that regulate the physical universe. Atheists claim that the laws exist reasonlessly and that the universe is ultimately absurd. As a scientist, I find this hard to accept. There must be an unchanging rational ground in which the logical, orderly nature of the universe is rooted. Is this rational ground like the timeless God of Augustine? Perhaps it is. But in any case, the law-like basis of the universe seems a more fruitful place for a dialogue between science and theology than focusing on the origin of the universe and the discredited notion of what happened before the Big Bang.
7 responses so far ↓
skinbad // December 13, 2006 at 4:23 pm |
*dips big toe in water*
*looks around*
*feels guilty, goes back to put swimming suit on*
*Cannonball!*
Interesting article. Short response is, yes, I do believe God is “everywhen.” I’m LDS (Mormon) and speak only for myself and with my understanding of my theology. An LDS scripture mentions a planet that is near where God lives and says one day there is a thousand of our years. I look at it as God being in the center of all things where time doesn’t exist. He sees past, present, and future all at once. Another LDS scripture says “the course of God is one eternal round” which goes along with the idea that He exists outside of time. The closer to the place He lives, the slower time moves. Kind of like the hub of the wheel might not seem to be moving fast, but the rim has to be flying to keep up.
Michael // December 27, 2006 at 6:15 pm |
Sure. The bible says this flat out.
(Psa 90:4 NASB) For a thousand years in Thy sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night.
Note that the imagery suggests that a thousand years are comparable to zero elapsed time in human experience. (A watch in the night is when everyone is asleesp.)
Peter says it a little differently:
B Delay, 3:8-9
(2 Pet 3:8 NASB) But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
In other words, time is irrelevant to God.
Jesus also claimed timelessness:
(John 8:5859 NASB) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.
Can’t be much more explicit than that. Note that Jesus is referring to himself in the present tense before the time of Abraham, as well as invoking the timeless and unspeakable name of God. Of course, the Jews felt obliged to attempt his stoning for this outrageous blasphemy.
Michael // December 27, 2006 at 6:18 pm |
Note also that many miracles are, as C.S. Lewis points out, miracles of time. Water changes into wine in the ordinary course of human affairs. It just takes time for us humans to do it.
Michael // December 27, 2006 at 6:29 pm |
This is why, BTW, it just seems silly for me to debate such issues as limbo for souls between death and judgment day. You only need to worry about this if you think you have to account for elapsed time. God does not.
The timelessness of God is really important, to me, in understanding the biblical concept of forgiveness. Another subject, I suppose, but the gist is that God can retroactively change reality. He really can make us pure, holy and righteous in His eyes, and does so now because of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. In other words, He is not just ignoring our sins in heaven, or even today. The biblical concept of forgiveness is that he eradicates them, “as far as the east is from the west.” In order to truly appreciate this, you have to believe that he is outside of time, and thus can retroactively change reality with His word, even as we, bound by time, continue to sign.
Which is what the Bible says he does.
*Michael lights another cigarette*
N.B., another interesting description of forgiveness is that God “forgets” our sins. So, what happens if the mind of a timeless God forgets something? Seems to me the obvious answer is that the “something” never existed. And that is “reality” even if you and I continue to experience it.
Which is sorta what St. Paul talks about in Romans.
I know, I’m rambling now.
Michael // December 27, 2006 at 6:42 pm |
BTW, Brew, the timelessness of God is also why I get kind of cavalier about the Calvinist/Lutheran debate about election. Bottom line is this — this issue fundamentally about time. God is outside of it, we are inside of it, and we are never going to figure that one out. At least not in this life.
BrewFan // December 28, 2006 at 9:01 am |
Excellent points, Michael. Nothing there that I disagree with. I have left the Calvinist camp with regards to election over the past several years. When all is said and done it just doesn’t square with the atonement. I know God’s mind is not our mind but I have a hard time believing God staged a Passion Play and nothing more. This concept of everywhen and the points you made above are where I’m at currently. But I do believe in the assurance of salvation (“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13) and the eternal security of the believer.
Time « Innocent Bystanders // January 14, 2007 at 1:13 am |
[...] our now, we undertake to deal with, and understand, a timeless god. It can’t be done. Eventually you have to rebel, deny, or [...]
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